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There will be a 4x8! GREAT job to those who presented to the GHSA today.
06/23/2020 3:02:16 PM
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Rumor is that 4x8, 4 event limit, 3 individuals per event per team, 1 relay per team all coming this Spring. 4x2 coming next Spring (2022 - to give schools a year to get the marks painted). Georgia aligning with NFHS. GREAT job to those who presented!
Rumor is that 4x8, 4 event limit, 3 individuals per event per team, 1 relay per team all coming this Spring. 4x2 coming next Spring (2022 - to give schools a year to get the marks painted).

Georgia aligning with NFHS. GREAT job to those who presented!
06/23/2020 3:42:41 PM
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Loss of Area's for XC state qualifying in 7A was a big loss. GHSA EC & T&F sub-committee did not listen to us or the GATFXCCA evidence presented and the responses from coaches & schools. A few BIG steps forward but again, another step BACK. 71% of 7A schools will now make the state meet. 1-AAAAAAA (4)-ALL TEAMS will make it to state (100%) Camden County Colquitt County Lowndes Tift County 2-AAAAAAA (5)-ALL but ONE will make it to state Campbell East Coweta McEachern Newnan Pebblebrook 4-AAAAAAA (5)-ALL but ONE will make it to state Brookwood Grayson Newton Parkview South Gwinnett 8-AAAAAAA (5)-ALL but ONE will make it to state Collins Hill Mill Creek Mountain View North Gwinnett Peachtree Ridge 19 schools (half of the 7A state schools) and 16 make the state meet!! That's 89% of schools making the state meet??
Loss of Area's for XC state qualifying in 7A was a big loss. GHSA EC & T&F sub-committee did not listen to us or the GATFXCCA evidence presented and the responses from coaches & schools. A few BIG steps forward but again, another step BACK.
71% of 7A schools will now make the state meet.

1-AAAAAAA (4)-ALL TEAMS will make it to state (100%)
Camden County
Colquitt County
Lowndes
Tift County

2-AAAAAAA (5)-ALL but ONE will make it to state
Campbell
East Coweta
McEachern
Newnan
Pebblebrook

4-AAAAAAA (5)-ALL but ONE will make it to state
Brookwood
Grayson
Newton
Parkview
South Gwinnett

8-AAAAAAA (5)-ALL but ONE will make it to state
Collins Hill
Mill Creek
Mountain View
North Gwinnett
Peachtree Ridge

19 schools (half of the 7A state schools) and 16 make the state meet!! That's 89% of schools making the state meet??
06/23/2020 6:20:14 PM
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Continual shame that athletes are not given the opportunity in GA HS T&F to compete in the Race Walk. The only event type/discipline (Run, Jump, Throw, Walk) in the Olympics that is omitted in the state. Athletes who have learned the event skills are told they are unworthy of competing with their school classmates. Athletes who would excel by learning these skills and have opportunities to achieve greatness, are denied those opportunities. Why, in this time of inclusion and diversity is this still a thing?
Continual shame that athletes are not given the opportunity in GA HS T&F to compete in the Race Walk. The only event type/discipline (Run, Jump, Throw, Walk) in the Olympics that is omitted in the state. Athletes who have learned the event skills are told they are unworthy of competing with their school classmates. Athletes who would excel by learning these skills and have opportunities to achieve greatness, are denied those opportunities. Why, in this time of inclusion and diversity is this still a thing?
06/23/2020 8:58:23 PM
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Thank you to those who worked hard on these changes. Lots of positives from today! Not a perfect outcome, but definitely a huge step forward. Let’s focus on that!
Thank you to those who worked hard on these changes. Lots of positives from today! Not a perfect outcome, but definitely a huge step forward. Let's focus on that!
06/25/2020 12:56:42 PM
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@mjroth, Don't forget the Hammer and Javelin! Those are also Olympic events not contested in GA HS's. Cheers, PV-ATL
@mjroth,

Don't forget the Hammer and Javelin! Those are also Olympic events not contested in GA HS's.

Cheers,

PV-ATL
06/25/2020 3:53:34 PM
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Great result on the addition of the relays and the increased number of individuals that can compete! With the loss of areas for XC, do all classes (1A public, 1A private, and 2A-7A) each have 4 teams from each region meet qualify for state? If so, for regions that only have 4 teams compete at a region meet, do all 4 teams qualify for state?
Great result on the addition of the relays and the increased number of individuals that can compete! With the loss of areas for XC, do all classes (1A public, 1A private, and 2A-7A) each have 4 teams from each region meet qualify for state? If so, for regions that only have 4 teams compete at a region meet, do all 4 teams qualify for state?
06/25/2020 5:16:50 PM
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@ncsukat Yes, all classifications have Regions, and top 4 teams at Region qualify for State. So if there are 4 teams in a Region, as long as they get 5 runners across the line without getting disqualified, they go to State.
@ncsukat

Yes, all classifications have Regions, and top 4 teams at Region qualify for State. So if there are 4 teams in a Region, as long as they get 5 runners across the line without getting disqualified, they go to State.
06/25/2020 11:03:32 PM
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[quote=coachac]@ncsukat Yes, all classifications have Regions, and top 4 teams at Region qualify for State. So if there are 4 teams in a Region, as long as they get 5 runners across the line without getting disqualified, they go to State. [/quote] Which if you think about it, is a little ridiculous! But then again, we could be Arkansas and all you have to do there is register for the State meet and you are in!
coachac wrote:
@ncsukat

Yes, all classifications have Regions, and top 4 teams at Region qualify for State. So if there are 4 teams in a Region, as long as they get 5 runners across the line without getting disqualified, they go to State.


Which if you think about it, is a little ridiculous! But then again, we could be Arkansas and all you have to do there is register for the State meet and you are in!
06/26/2020 12:22:32 PM
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@spxcoachrm Absolutely on the Jav! Any safety issues could be all but eliminated by using the TurboJav implement instead of the traditional one. Throwing mechanics are the same and it can be practiced safely indoors too. Hammer is a tough one, as the costs of facilities is enormous, however. Cannot see that happening because of $, as you cannot use a HS Discus cage or a softball/baseball backstop, as some schools still do. 1st time there's an injury, that event goes away.
@spxcoachrm

Absolutely on the Jav! Any safety issues could be all but eliminated by using the TurboJav implement instead of the traditional one. Throwing mechanics are the same and it can be practiced safely indoors too.

Hammer is a tough one, as the costs of facilities is enormous, however. Cannot see that happening because of $, as you cannot use a HS Discus cage or a softball/baseball backstop, as some schools still do. 1st time there's an injury, that event goes away.
06/26/2020 12:57:06 PM
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@mjroth Yep! The Turbo Jav would be a good event! They now make longer, more "Javelin Like" implements that throw pretty close to a real one. They are pretty cheap, too($45-$55). We had an impromptu Turbo Jav competition at a Middle School meet some years back. We had two pages of competitors. They loved it! Cheers, PV-ATL
@mjroth

Yep! The Turbo Jav would be a good event! They now make longer, more "Javelin Like" implements that throw pretty close to a real one. They are pretty cheap, too($45-$55).

We had an impromptu Turbo Jav competition at a Middle School meet some years back. We had two pages of competitors. They loved it!

Cheers,

PV-ATL
06/26/2020 9:26:13 PM
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@mjroth I assumed you were just trolling with the race walking bit...
@mjroth
I assumed you were just trolling with the race walking bit...
06/27/2020 10:59:31 AM
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We cannot realistically use the Olympics to determine our high school track and field event lineup. We would say goodbye to the 300 hurdles and replace it with a 400 hurdles, would eliminate the newly acquired 4 x 2 and 4 x 8, we would switch out the 1600 for the 1500, we would eliminate the 3200 and force everyone to buy steeple chase barriers and dig the water pit, we would add both the 5000 and the 10,000 m to the track… I can go on. This was a historic day for Georgia track and field and we are more closely aligned to the national Federation standards than we have ever been. This is a time to celebrate!
We cannot realistically use the Olympics to determine our high school track and field event lineup. We would say goodbye to the 300 hurdles and replace it with a 400 hurdles, would eliminate the newly acquired 4 x 2 and 4 x 8, we would switch out the 1600 for the 1500, we would eliminate the 3200 and force everyone to buy steeple chase barriers and dig the water pit, we would add both the 5000 and the 10,000 m to the track… I can go on.

This was a historic day for Georgia track and field and we are more closely aligned to the national Federation standards than we have ever been. This is a time to celebrate!
06/27/2020 12:10:22 PM
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@Eric_Heintz Not every event needs to be at the Olympic distance, that would be absurd and using that as an argument is riddled with logic fallacies. What can and should be done is to offer each of the disciplines within the sport, so that athletes can develop the skills necessary to compete in those events as the condition of distance changes. The 300 H is a great primer for athletes who need skill development in hurdling technique without worrying about the fatigue breakdown that always happens in the 400 H. I've coached in states that have offered both versions. The benefit is there for developing athletes in having the shorter distance and have used it to develop hurdlers who might otherwise have competed in other events. Currently, GA does not have an option for HS athletes to learn the skills in the RW. Doing that over a 1500, 1600, Mile distance is ideal for skill development, just as running those distances will prepare athletes to compete in 3k, 3200, 5k as they mature physically. Introducing athletes to the event at the ages of 13-18 is critical for development of the individual and the overall event in creating interest and depth of performance. This is the same as EVERY OTHER EVENT. Congrats that GA had the foresight to make these positive changes in adding the 4x2 and 4x8. Great opportunities for more competition. Keep going in that direction and add events that promote more diversity of skill acquisition and encourage athletes with different ability strata to engage in T&F competition. The sport will always be better when it increases the inclusionary mindset towards the events contested.
@Eric_Heintz
Not every event needs to be at the Olympic distance, that would be absurd and using that as an argument is riddled with logic fallacies. What can and should be done is to offer each of the disciplines within the sport, so that athletes can develop the skills necessary to compete in those events as the condition of distance changes. The 300 H is a great primer for athletes who need skill development in hurdling technique without worrying about the fatigue breakdown that always happens in the 400 H. I've coached in states that have offered both versions. The benefit is there for developing athletes in having the shorter distance and have used it to develop hurdlers who might otherwise have competed in other events.

Currently, GA does not have an option for HS athletes to learn the skills in the RW. Doing that over a 1500, 1600, Mile distance is ideal for skill development, just as running those distances will prepare athletes to compete in 3k, 3200, 5k as they mature physically. Introducing athletes to the event at the ages of 13-18 is critical for development of the individual and the overall event in creating interest and depth of performance. This is the same as EVERY OTHER EVENT.

Congrats that GA had the foresight to make these positive changes in adding the 4x2 and 4x8. Great opportunities for more competition. Keep going in that direction and add events that promote more diversity of skill acquisition and encourage athletes with different ability strata to engage in T&F competition. The sport will always be better when it increases the inclusionary mindset towards the events contested.
06/27/2020 8:02:20 PM
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@mjroth Ok. You have convinced me that it would be a good thing if we included RW as a discipline to GHSA state track meet. At least in theory. But I seriously worry about how well we could implement it. The judging alone would be very difficult at meets, including the state meets. Not to mention proper training for officials and coaches. I also wonder where the nfhs would recommend it falls in meets. I also wonder who would do it, I worry it would just be and extra event distance runners could do, which was the main obstacle the 4x8 had to overcome. I have more concerns but that’s all I’ve got off the top of my head. But mostly I just have one initial question- how many high school states have race walk at their state meet? Because if the answer isn’t at least 40, you’re fighting a major uphill battle and there’s nothing any of us can do to help you
@mjroth

Ok. You have convinced me that it would be a good thing if we included RW as a discipline to GHSA state track meet. At least in theory. But I seriously worry about how well we could implement it. The judging alone would be very difficult at meets, including the state meets. Not to mention proper training for officials and coaches. I also wonder where the nfhs would recommend it falls in meets. I also wonder who would do it, I worry it would just be and extra event distance runners could do, which was the main obstacle the 4x8 had to overcome. I have more concerns but that's all I've got off the top of my head.

But mostly I just have one initial question- how many high school states have race walk at their state meet? Because if the answer isn't at least 40, you're fighting a major uphill battle and there's nothing any of us can do to help you
06/27/2020 10:27:33 PM
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I was told by someone in the know that if we want to change the XC State meet, to try to create an elimination process like so: 1st Round = Region Meet, ran as normal with 4 teams moving forward to a Sectional meet (Like TF) 2nd Round = Sectional Meet, 4 Regions converge (like TF) with 16 teams. Top 8 teams move forward to the State Final Final Round = State Meet @ Carrollton, 16 teams in each Classification. I know we had this a some years ago, but 1 difference is that there would be no automatic bid from Region to State Final. This was told to my source by a GHSA Voting Member. This is considered by him to be a tournament with elimination. He said that the Region meet is considered part of the Regular season because every team gets to participate. With this model, South and North Georgia teams would be represented in the 2nd Round of "playoffs." The GHSA Voting member said to my source said that this would probably pass if we can get it written up correctly and in time for the next opportunity to get something passed. But it would have to be 1A to 7A inclusive. That no class would have a different process to advance.
I was told by someone in the know that if we want to change the XC State meet, to try to create an elimination process like so:

1st Round = Region Meet, ran as normal with 4 teams moving forward to a Sectional meet (Like TF)

2nd Round = Sectional Meet, 4 Regions converge (like TF) with 16 teams. Top 8 teams move forward to the State Final

Final Round = State Meet @ Carrollton, 16 teams in each Classification.

I know we had this a some years ago, but 1 difference is that there would be no automatic bid from Region to State Final.

This was told to my source by a GHSA Voting Member.

This is considered by him to be a tournament with elimination. He said that the Region meet is considered part of the Regular season because every team gets to participate.

With this model, South and North Georgia teams would be represented in the 2nd Round of "playoffs."

The GHSA Voting member said to my source said that this would probably pass if we can get it written up correctly and in time for the next opportunity to get something passed.

But it would have to be 1A to 7A inclusive. That no class would have a different process to advance.
06/28/2020 8:38:53 PM
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@spxcoachrm NY and Maine have both implemented this state wide with no issues in coaching or officiating that would not experience in any other event. Other states like Alabama, SC, Ohio, etc., have done it in specific locations as well. GA has a history of some excellent athletes in the event too. Most recently, the 2018 Boys HS RW AOY was from GA. He's now on scholarship at Missouri Baptist Univ. Many NAIA schools actively recruit for the event, including a large number in the SE Region, which is one of the strongest nationally in the event. Judging is typically split in the dual/tri meets with 1 coach per team and the starter if they are neutral. This assures not home cooking occurs. In invitationals, assignments for this race are just like any other event. Umpires usually take this duty too. There are knowledgeable USATF RW officials in every state who would gladly teach any/all interested people how to do this with the skill/knowledge level required at the HS level. 90+% of the calls made in these meets will be for a bent knee, which is very easy to see, especially at the speeds it occurs at. Athletes generally are not losing contact with the ground to point of violating the rules until they are under 8:00 for girls and 7:30 for boys. Those are the very elite level kids and not found everywhere. Even at those paces, the athletes are usually legal too, it just doesn't happen until they reach those paces. There are some officiating education materials available and more are being developed right now. You can find them on www.hsrw.net. For coaching, it's really a simple event to teach and learn at the HS level. Materials for this are also on www.hsrw.net. It's all free and most of the videos are 5-10 minutes in length. The sprint hurdles and triple jump are harder events to teach and learn because they have multiple movement patterns to master and synchronize. Walking only has one that repeats. The NFHS does not specify where in the meet it should occur. NY and Maine put it at different spots. Doing it when the 300 Hurdles are being setup works well to avoid adding time to the meet. Combining genders into 1 race outside of Championships also helps. Athlete ID is best done with 2nd tier 400-800m runners, because they have leg speed/turnover to be successful. Hurdlers also work, as they have the rhythm needed. Generally, distance athletes have a little more trouble picking up the skills if they are lacking in coordination. The issue of what other states are doing is completely irrelevant. If it were, then no one would ever do anything different. Pennsylvania has the Javelin. Rhode Island has the Hammer. Both are not contested widely. Both instances there was a recognized benefit to the athletes, so the event was added. The Girls PV and TJ became a reality the same way. There was an interest and need to offer opportunity and people made it happen. Thanks for engaging.
@spxcoachrm
NY and Maine have both implemented this state wide with no issues in coaching or officiating that would not experience in any other event. Other states like Alabama, SC, Ohio, etc., have done it in specific locations as well. GA has a history of some excellent athletes in the event too. Most recently, the 2018 Boys HS RW AOY was from GA. He's now on scholarship at Missouri Baptist Univ. Many NAIA schools actively recruit for the event, including a large number in the SE Region, which is one of the strongest nationally in the event.

Judging is typically split in the dual/tri meets with 1 coach per team and the starter if they are neutral. This assures not home cooking occurs. In invitationals, assignments for this race are just like any other event. Umpires usually take this duty too. There are knowledgeable USATF RW officials in every state who would gladly teach any/all interested people how to do this with the skill/knowledge level required at the HS level. 90+% of the calls made in these meets will be for a bent knee, which is very easy to see, especially at the speeds it occurs at. Athletes generally are not losing contact with the ground to point of violating the rules until they are under 8:00 for girls and 7:30 for boys. Those are the very elite level kids and not found everywhere. Even at those paces, the athletes are usually legal too, it just doesn't happen until they reach those paces. There are some officiating education materials available and more are being developed right now. You can find them on www.hsrw.net.

For coaching, it's really a simple event to teach and learn at the HS level. Materials for this are also on www.hsrw.net. It's all free and most of the videos are 5-10 minutes in length. The sprint hurdles and triple jump are harder events to teach and learn because they have multiple movement patterns to master and synchronize. Walking only has one that repeats.

The NFHS does not specify where in the meet it should occur. NY and Maine put it at different spots. Doing it when the 300 Hurdles are being setup works well to avoid adding time to the meet. Combining genders into 1 race outside of Championships also helps.

Athlete ID is best done with 2nd tier 400-800m runners, because they have leg speed/turnover to be successful. Hurdlers also work, as they have the rhythm needed. Generally, distance athletes have a little more trouble picking up the skills if they are lacking in coordination.

The issue of what other states are doing is completely irrelevant. If it were, then no one would ever do anything different. Pennsylvania has the Javelin. Rhode Island has the Hammer. Both are not contested widely. Both instances there was a recognized benefit to the athletes, so the event was added. The Girls PV and TJ became a reality the same way. There was an interest and need to offer opportunity and people made it happen.

Thanks for engaging.
06/29/2020 6:22:07 AM
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@mjroth I'm on board. If there's a way for me to vote on it one day, I'll vote in favor of it. That would likely only ever be in the form of a GATFXCCA survey about it though, I can't imagine I'll ever be on a GHSA committee where my vote actually counts for something. But this probably isn't the state to try to get this to happen. We're not exactly pioneers in track and field. Hence my question about how many states already have it. But hey, if you want to fight for it, I suggest going through the GATFXCCA and seeing what they say. That's probably the only chance you have, but even then I seriously doubt it'll happen unless most other states also add it. Maybe it will happen in 10 years or something. Maybe social distancing will make it more likely for people to consider it. Who knows. I'm not arguing with you or telling you why I think we shouldn't have it. I've just been coaching here for 11 years now and that's about how long it took for us to finally get the 4x800, an event that almost all 50 states already had...
@mjroth

I'm on board. If there's a way for me to vote on it one day, I'll vote in favor of it. That would likely only ever be in the form of a GATFXCCA survey about it though, I can't imagine I'll ever be on a GHSA committee where my vote actually counts for something.

But this probably isn't the state to try to get this to happen. We're not exactly pioneers in track and field. Hence my question about how many states already have it. But hey, if you want to fight for it, I suggest going through the GATFXCCA and seeing what they say. That's probably the only chance you have, but even then I seriously doubt it'll happen unless most other states also add it. Maybe it will happen in 10 years or something. Maybe social distancing will make it more likely for people to consider it. Who knows. I'm not arguing with you or telling you why I think we shouldn't have it. I've just been coaching here for 11 years now and that's about how long it took for us to finally get the 4x800, an event that almost all 50 states already had...
06/29/2020 9:51:22 AM
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@hoyarelay I like this as the BEST teams make it to state & fields are smaller (and makes making it to state a honor and a big accomplishment) and so less chance of any issues at the Carrollton course start with too many (32) teams. Again it comes down to how you split the sectional meet and make sure it is weighted correctly with strong programs in BOTH sections (note: a region champion should not necessarily get a first or higher seed, it should be based on team performances at meets, etc).
@hoyarelay
I like this as the BEST teams make it to state & fields are smaller (and makes making it to state a honor and a big accomplishment) and so less chance of any issues at the Carrollton course start with too many (32) teams.
Again it comes down to how you split the sectional meet and make sure it is weighted correctly with strong programs in BOTH sections (note: a region champion should not necessarily get a first or higher seed, it should be based on team performances at meets, etc).
06/29/2020 5:32:21 PM
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FYI: 7A Area pairings were never intended to last for 4 years. That's just what ended up happening.
FYI: 7A Area pairings were never intended to last for 4 years. That's just what ended up happening.
06/30/2020 3:52:59 PM
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@hoyarelay @acarr6453 I'd be all for this! 100% agree that making it to State should be an honor. Raising the bar would improve competition in every classification. There would be some logistics for hosting the Sectional meets and teams traveling, but seems doable. Developing teams could treat making Sectionals as a first step, then making State. And you wouldn't have athletes walking in any of the races at State (which tells you something's not right with the system). 16 teams would be 112 runners. Not too small but not too big. You don't even have to take top 8 teams from Sectionals. Could be top 10 or whatever the right cutoff is. Seeding is an interesting point. Are we saying teams would be assigned to their Sectional race based on prior results? Don't think you could objectivly base it on anything but Region. That's always tricky with courses. Another way would be to have the same 4 regions advance to the same Sectional each year. You'd likely end up with one meet being traditionally more difficult to advance, but balancing the regions could help. We have the same dynamic in track/field anyway. I wonder if they'd want a rule where you must have 1 team from each region advance to State. Maybe not since they're all represented at Sectionals, and that's not how other playoffs work. I do wish there was a way to move back to a 1-day State meet on Saturday. We need fewer classifications as it is, but that's a different issue. Adding a Sectional like this would do a lot of good for our sport. GATFXCCA? Next proposal?
@hoyarelay @acarr6453

I'd be all for this! 100% agree that making it to State should be an honor. Raising the bar would improve competition in every classification. There would be some logistics for hosting the Sectional meets and teams traveling, but seems doable.

Developing teams could treat making Sectionals as a first step, then making State. And you wouldn't have athletes walking in any of the races at State (which tells you something's not right with the system).

16 teams would be 112 runners. Not too small but not too big. You don't even have to take top 8 teams from Sectionals. Could be top 10 or whatever the right cutoff is.

Seeding is an interesting point. Are we saying teams would be assigned to their Sectional race based on prior results? Don't think you could objectivly base it on anything but Region. That's always tricky with courses.

Another way would be to have the same 4 regions advance to the same Sectional each year. You'd likely end up with one meet being traditionally more difficult to advance, but balancing the regions could help. We have the same dynamic in track/field anyway. I wonder if they'd want a rule where you must have 1 team from each region advance to State. Maybe not since they're all represented at Sectionals, and that's not how other playoffs work.

I do wish there was a way to move back to a 1-day State meet on Saturday. We need fewer classifications as it is, but that's a different issue. Adding a Sectional like this would do a lot of good for our sport.

GATFXCCA? Next proposal?

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