Alexander- Asics Course
10/05/2019 4:49:34 PM
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My child ran at Fox creek today and as beautiful of a day it was and as well as the meet is put on, I have a hard time telling my child that the course was anywhere near 5000m. Just look at the winning times and compare them to the times in Cary at Great American. The BEST team in the STATE right now Harrison ran an avg time of 16:03 in Cary, which is essentially the same time they ran at Wingfoot (16:05) The #2 team at A-A ran 45 seconds, FORTY FIVE SECONDS ON AVERAGE, faster than they did at Wingfoot. Coaches, if Meet Management isn't going to come out and say that it was NOT 5000m, then please you cannot tell your kids that they were 45 seconds faster today because they "worked hard" or had "perfect conditions" today. Come on, if it looks like a Duck and sounds like a duck, IT MUST BE A DUCK!!! THERE IS NO WAY THAT COURSE WAS 5000M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My child ran at Fox creek today and as beautiful of a day it was and as well as the meet is put on, I have a hard time telling my child that the course was anywhere near 5000m.

Just look at the winning times and compare them to the times in Cary at Great American.

The BEST team in the STATE right now Harrison ran an avg time of 16:03 in Cary, which is essentially the same time they ran at Wingfoot (16:05)

The #2 team at A-A ran 45 seconds, FORTY FIVE SECONDS ON AVERAGE, faster than they did at Wingfoot.

Coaches, if Meet Management isn't going to come out and say that it was NOT 5000m, then please you cannot tell your kids that they were 45 seconds faster today because they "worked hard" or had "perfect conditions" today.

Come on, if it looks like a Duck and sounds like a duck, IT MUST BE A DUCK!!!

THERE IS NO WAY THAT COURSE WAS 5000M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10/05/2019 5:21:16 PM
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Coach Taylor Ford of East Paulding measured our course twice for us. I used him because I knew people would doubt the accuracy. However, McKenna Trapheagen ran slower than her 5k track PR, the wingfoot winner ran 13 seconds slower. All other races winning times were about 5-10 seconds difference. I make this prediction. Justin will run 8:40-45 before he leave HS. Kid he beat ran 8:56 last year and was a Footlocker finalist. Top kid from NC ran 15:14 at Cary two weeks ago and ran 15:05 today.
Coach Taylor Ford of East Paulding measured our course twice for us. I used him because I knew people would doubt the accuracy. However, McKenna Trapheagen ran slower than her 5k track PR, the wingfoot winner ran 13 seconds slower. All other races winning times were about 5-10 seconds difference. I make this prediction. Justin will run 8:40-45 before he leave HS. Kid he beat ran 8:56 last year and was a Footlocker finalist. Top kid from NC ran 15:14 at Cary two weeks ago and ran 15:05 today.
10/05/2019 6:07:52 PM
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@brxctf2001 the course was def short. There’s not a single chance that was a full 5k.
@brxctf2001 the course was def short. There's not a single chance that was a full 5k.
10/05/2019 6:15:48 PM
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You can come measure it for us next year. @Kurilko
You can come measure it for us next year. @Kurilko
10/05/2019 6:29:17 PM
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Like I said I don’t measure the course I had Taylor Ford measure it for me and Wheel in the Sky. also. I don’t measure my course.
Like I said I don't measure the course I had Taylor Ford measure it for me and Wheel in the Sky. also. I don't measure my course.
10/05/2019 6:37:37 PM
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Answer this question Why was all the other races normal to last year. All of them, go look at results from years. I don’t why the boys ran fast.
Answer this question
Why was all the other races normal to last year. All of them, go look at results from years. I don't why the boys ran fast.
10/05/2019 6:45:40 PM
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It's worth pointing out that fast and short aren't the same thing, in the same way that a slow course isn't necessarily long. This was our first time running at Foxhall - and kudos to Coach Robinson, as I thought that the meet management was exceptional - and I don't think you can doubt that it's fast. That said, as far as the length goes, I think that we've had this conversation every October for the last few years. Unless you're going to go wheel it yourself - and some people have - we're beating a dead horse talking about the length.
It's worth pointing out that fast and short aren't the same thing, in the same way that a slow course isn't necessarily long. This was our first time running at Foxhall - and kudos to Coach Robinson, as I thought that the meet management was exceptional - and I don't think you can doubt that it's fast. That said, as far as the length goes, I think that we've had this conversation every October for the last few years. Unless you're going to go wheel it yourself - and some people have - we're beating a dead horse talking about the length.
10/05/2019 8:27:39 PM
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Notice that anyone that runs one of those "fast" courses NEVER will admit that's short? "Oh no, I was primed and ready" Someone who runs 15:11 DOES NOT RUN 44 SECONDS FASTER ON AN EQUAL DISTANCE COURSE 2 weeks later. BRxcthdkes even admits that he DOES NOT KNOW OW LONG IT IS OR ISNT. He put it on someone else to measure it. When was it measured? Were you there to verify it?
Notice that anyone that runs one of those "fast" courses NEVER will admit that's short?

"Oh no, I was primed and ready" Someone who runs 15:11 DOES NOT RUN 44 SECONDS FASTER ON AN EQUAL DISTANCE COURSE 2 weeks later.

BRxcthdkes even admits that he DOES NOT KNOW OW LONG IT IS OR ISNT. He put it on someone else to measure it.

When was it measured? Were you there to verify it?
10/05/2019 9:44:11 PM
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I wheeled the course last year prior to the Asics race and had within the margin to call it a 5k. I wheeled it twice to double check. So what I measured last year was accurate. I did not wheel it this year, but Coach Robinson said he used the same course. Unless someone knows differently, I can't say anything about the comparison between last year and this years courses. My two cents is why was the Championship boys so much faster than any other race? That to me was strange. Coach Robinson and I talked and that was what seemed like the bigger question. Again, I can only say that the route I measured last year was within range. (I believe 40-50 away from 5000).
I wheeled the course last year prior to the Asics race and had within the margin to call it a 5k. I wheeled it twice to double check. So what I measured last year was accurate. I did not wheel it this year, but Coach Robinson said he used the same course. Unless someone knows differently, I can't say anything about the comparison between last year and this years courses.

My two cents is why was the Championship boys so much faster than any other race? That to me was strange. Coach Robinson and I talked and that was what seemed like the bigger question.

Again, I can only say that the route I measured last year was within range. (I believe 40-50 away from 5000).
10/05/2019 9:49:01 PM
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@xcnewbee from what I understand conditions were optimal,cloudy, slight breeze, hard surface, only thing that could heve been better was maybe 10 degrees cooler.. then there's the mental factor, confident you are going to go fast..
@xcnewbee from what I understand conditions were optimal,cloudy, slight breeze, hard surface, only thing that could heve been better was maybe 10 degrees cooler.. then there's the mental factor, confident you are going to go fast..
10/05/2019 9:51:07 PM
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@6Aparent I walked it with him
@6Aparent I walked it with him
10/06/2019 7:50:45 AM
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Some thoughts: 1. Milesplit rankings don't mean anything. College coaches aren't looking at them either. Every year there are teams that are "ranked" higher on those rankings that do worse at state. 2. As previously pointed out, the girls times up front are much more in line with what those girls have previously run. It seems people are questioning the boys times more than the girls. Or questioning the runners in the pack, in which case see point #4. 3. Blanks ran 14:45 at great american. Myles Collins went toe to toe with Blanks earlier this year and only ran 8 seconds faster than Blanks on a much flatter course. Is it unreasonable to think that Blanks could have gone mid 14:30's at Asics? Wachtel hasn't raced Blanks yet this year, but he's undefeated. Maybe he was capable of faster at all of his other races. Maybe if Winders had been at Wingfoot he pushes Wachtel to 14:50 like we saw with McLeod and Bowers two years ago. If that happens, then removing the hills wouldn't make a 14:26 seem unreasonable. 4. Typically what happens when you remove the hills and make a course pancake flat like Asics is that the slower the runner is, the more they improve. So a 15:00 runner isn't going to drop as much time as a 17:00 runner for boys and a 18:00 runner isn't going to drop as much time as a 20:00 runner for girls. 5. Which brings me to point #5. Whether you call this course short or fast doesn't really matter to me. Either way you're acknowledging that the kids will almost definitely never run that time again. Is that a good thing? Many kids do post season races on a fast course. Is it better for them to be aiming to run their fastest time ever or within 20s of it? It just doesn't sound as motivating to go to Nike or Footlocker and tell a kid "ok, you can't hit your Asics time, but go ahead and try to be about 30s slower." To each their own I guess. But personally that sounds like something that'd be hard to put a positive spin on. Or I suppose worse would be if you keep telling a kid/the kid keeps believing they can run faster than Asics and keeps coming up short/very short. That would be very discouraging. I realize some kids do end up running faster, but most don't.
Some thoughts:

1. Milesplit rankings don't mean anything. College coaches aren't looking at them either. Every year there are teams that are "ranked" higher on those rankings that do worse at state.

2. As previously pointed out, the girls times up front are much more in line with what those girls have previously run. It seems people are questioning the boys times more than the girls. Or questioning the runners in the pack, in which case see point #4.

3. Blanks ran 14:45 at great american. Myles Collins went toe to toe with Blanks earlier this year and only ran 8 seconds faster than Blanks on a much flatter course. Is it unreasonable to think that Blanks could have gone mid 14:30's at Asics? Wachtel hasn't raced Blanks yet this year, but he's undefeated. Maybe he was capable of faster at all of his other races. Maybe if Winders had been at Wingfoot he pushes Wachtel to 14:50 like we saw with McLeod and Bowers two years ago. If that happens, then removing the hills wouldn't make a 14:26 seem unreasonable.

4. Typically what happens when you remove the hills and make a course pancake flat like Asics is that the slower the runner is, the more they improve. So a 15:00 runner isn't going to drop as much time as a 17:00 runner for boys and a 18:00 runner isn't going to drop as much time as a 20:00 runner for girls.

5. Which brings me to point #5. Whether you call this course short or fast doesn't really matter to me. Either way you're acknowledging that the kids will almost definitely never run that time again. Is that a good thing? Many kids do post season races on a fast course. Is it better for them to be aiming to run their fastest time ever or within 20s of it? It just doesn't sound as motivating to go to Nike or Footlocker and tell a kid "ok, you can't hit your Asics time, but go ahead and try to be about 30s slower." To each their own I guess. But personally that sounds like something that'd be hard to put a positive spin on. Or I suppose worse would be if you keep telling a kid/the kid keeps believing they can run faster than Asics and keeps coming up short/very short. That would be very discouraging. I realize some kids do end up running faster, but most don't.
10/06/2019 1:38:03 PM
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The meet information said that it was 3.07 miles and 4.93km which would make it 70 meters short of a 5k. The course is also fast and conditions were ideal. Considering the posted length of the course, I would not count these as PR's for our runners and I do not think it should be added to the database as it will certainly skew the virtual meets. Coach Robinson is not trying to hide anything and does a great job. Coach Hudson
The meet information said that it was 3.07 miles and 4.93km which would make it 70 meters short of a 5k. The course is also fast and conditions were ideal. Considering the posted length of the course, I would not count these as PR's for our runners and I do not think it should be added to the database as it will certainly skew the virtual meets.

Coach Robinson is not trying to hide anything and does a great job.

Coach Hudson
10/06/2019 9:13:02 PM
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@hudsonxc Yes, 3.07 is within the reasonable distance of 5K. At least the course distance has been posted from the start. Mid-State was short, Wingfoot this year was short (plenty of data to show it wasn't 5k), there are numerous other "fast" races in Georgia that are closer to 3 than 3.1. Great American is short as well. The rankings were already unhinged from reality, you can't seriously claim that this one race will amount to anything. It all gets sorted out at Carrollton anyway.
@hudsonxc

Yes, 3.07 is within the reasonable distance of 5K. At least the course distance has been posted from the start. Mid-State was short, Wingfoot this year was short (plenty of data to show it wasn't 5k), there are numerous other "fast" races in Georgia that are closer to 3 than 3.1. Great American is short as well. The rankings were already unhinged from reality, you can't seriously claim that this one race will amount to anything. It all gets sorted out at Carrollton anyway.
10/06/2019 11:17:12 PM
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@Gulsby Thank you for making the point that not all courses are exactly 5000m. Plenty of them are short so the fact that this one is short AND flat doesn’t give any reason to get all upset about it. I believe that the course may be slightly short but within the standards that allow it to be a legitimate 5k. Everyone needs to calm down and measure the course themself if it is so important to them that they don’t trust the meet manager.
@Gulsby
Thank you for making the point that not all courses are exactly 5000m. Plenty of them are short so the fact that this one is short AND flat doesn't give any reason to get all upset about it. I believe that the course may be slightly short but within the standards that allow it to be a legitimate 5k. Everyone needs to calm down and measure the course themself if it is so important to them that they don't trust the meet manager.
10/07/2019 3:13:02 PM
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Milesplit has a wonderful year-over-year meet comparison tool. Not debating short or not (don't care plus others already on that, above), but the field overall was a good bit faster this year for both boys and girls. Maybe just a stronger field, maybe better weather, maybe a firmer course...but the data is clear that things were a good bit faster this year vs last for both boys and girls (see links below). Also, based on the blurb below from the 2018 meet preview, it sounds like the course was trued up to be exactly 5k: "For years the course at Fox hall has come into question about its accuracy. Despite measuring it many times it still brings up this conversation on the message boards. This year Coach Robinson invited Coach Taylor Ford of East Paulding to measure the course. Coach Ford measured the course twice getting an average of 4950. The coaches at Alexander have also measured the course and got an average of 4954. On Sunday, Coach Robinson made adjustments to the course to get 5000 meters. The course has been measured 5 times in the last week by the standards set by the GATFXCCA. On a side note, Coach Robinson has also used a GPS watch, range finder and even a tape measure over the summer to measure the course." [url=https://ga.milesplit.com/meets/358270/compare/313117?event=5000m&gender=f#.XZuOgGlKiUn]Girls Results[/url] [url=https://ga.milesplit.com/meets/358270/compare/313117?event=5000m&gender=m#.XZuOzWlKiUn]Boys Results[/url]
Milesplit has a wonderful year-over-year meet comparison tool. Not debating short or not (don't care plus others already on that, above), but the field overall was a good bit faster this year for both boys and girls. Maybe just a stronger field, maybe better weather, maybe a firmer course...but the data is clear that things were a good bit faster this year vs last for both boys and girls (see links below).

Also, based on the blurb below from the 2018 meet preview, it sounds like the course was trued up to be exactly 5k:

"For years the course at Fox hall has come into question about its accuracy. Despite measuring it many times it still brings up this conversation on the message boards. This year Coach Robinson invited Coach Taylor Ford of East Paulding to measure the course. Coach Ford measured the course twice getting an average of 4950. The coaches at Alexander have also measured the course and got an average of 4954. On Sunday, Coach Robinson made adjustments to the course to get 5000 meters. The course has been measured 5 times in the last week by the standards set by the GATFXCCA. On a side note, Coach Robinson has also used a GPS watch, range finder and even a tape measure over the summer to measure the course."

Girls Results

Boys Results
10/08/2019 9:51:48 AM
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Good news for those you who are concerned about the times at Asics - Tully Runners has gone ahead and done its scoring system for that course as well as Great American so - even though it is not perfect it is as good as you are going to get for comparing. For those of you who want to fish through the site history they (he) also scored Wingfoot and a couple other course GA schools have participated on so you have a pretty good historical comparison as well. Remember - as a runner get more fit during the year they should have higher scores - and you can see that happening from Wingfoot to this weekend. Each point generally corresponds to about 3 sec so even if you are not on the list you can get an idea of where you fit. As a last take away the scores given for A/A were very good - among the top 30 in the country so far and put the winners about 4-6 sec behind the winning performance at GA. This is turning out to be a very good year for GA XC.
Good news for those you who are concerned about the times at Asics - Tully Runners has gone ahead and done its scoring system for that course as well as Great American so - even though it is not perfect it is as good as you are going to get for comparing. For those of you who want to fish through the site history they (he) also scored Wingfoot and a couple other course GA schools have participated on so you have a pretty good historical comparison as well. Remember - as a runner get more fit during the year they should have higher scores - and you can see that happening from Wingfoot to this weekend. Each point generally corresponds to about 3 sec so even if you are not on the list you can get an idea of where you fit.

As a last take away the scores given for A/A were very good - among the top 30 in the country so far and put the winners about 4-6 sec behind the winning performance at GA. This is turning out to be a very good year for GA XC.
10/08/2019 10:44:39 AM
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@6Aparent The course has been measured it is a 5k. Well done coach Robinson on a great meet. Lets just get on with it 6A parent. Unless you measured it yourself just let the coaches do the course work...
@6Aparent

The course has been measured it is a 5k. Well done coach Robinson on a great meet.
Lets just get on with it 6A parent. Unless you measured it yourself just let the coaches do the course work...
10/08/2019 11:11:08 AM
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@spxcoachrm Completely agree. People can omplain all they want, but at the end of the day this race being 45 seconds faster than many other course is just that: fast. So what? It's not giving these kids an unfair advantage when it comes to college recruiting, so there is no reason to complain about this. We all see what plays out in November; not to mention almost none of the most competitive programs in the state raced there (I wonder why?!). My one drawback with this meet is the mental effect such a fast course will have on these kids. What high school kid is going to be happy if their time at Asics junior year is their fastest high school time ever. While I know it might be cool to have that sub-16 on your milesplit; inevitably these kids are going to be frustrated and lose the excitement that comes with post season races like NXR. I just wish coaches could see that and Georgia as a state could move back to having harder, more-competitive meets throughout the season. Anyways what I'm trying to say is that courses like this are only going to hurt runner's mindsets and the best way to help that is to stay away from these courses and stick to more competitive harder races. As someone who was once a high school runner myself, I know its more fun to have a team tradition of going to the same big meets each year and being able to look forward to them. No need to complain though, the course won't effect any state performances. It really seems like this is a fast kid/parent posting who is angry that their team didn't get the national recognition that Justin did last weekend.
@spxcoachrm

Completely agree. People can omplain all they want, but at the end of the day this race being 45 seconds faster than many other course is just that: fast. So what? It's not giving these kids an unfair advantage when it comes to college recruiting, so there is no reason to complain about this. We all see what plays out in November; not to mention almost none of the most competitive programs in the state raced there (I wonder why?!).

My one drawback with this meet is the mental effect such a fast course will have on these kids. What high school kid is going to be happy if their time at Asics junior year is their fastest high school time ever. While I know it might be cool to have that sub-16 on your milesplit; inevitably these kids are going to be frustrated and lose the excitement that comes with post season races like NXR. I just wish coaches could see that and Georgia as a state could move back to having harder, more-competitive meets throughout the season.

Anyways what I'm trying to say is that courses like this are only going to hurt runner's mindsets and the best way to help that is to stay away from these courses and stick to more competitive harder races. As someone who was once a high school runner myself, I know its more fun to have a team tradition of going to the same big meets each year and being able to look forward to them. No need to complain though, the course won't effect any state performances. It really seems like this is a fast kid/parent posting who is angry that their team didn't get the national recognition that Justin did last weekend.
10/08/2019 12:04:35 PM
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@coachrickpt If running a fast course hurts a runners mindset, then the coach needs to educate their runners. Every course is different and runs different. Still what people are not doing is explaining to me and Coach Ford is why the other 9 races didn't produce the times the boys did. the winners in all of the other races produced an improvement of 8.75 seconds from their PR's. If you take the top 5 girls in the Championship race they ran an average of 11.4 seconds faster than their lifetime PR. Someone explain to me why this was the case. Shouldn't these athletes have run 30-45 seconds faster than their PR. And according my wife's math. Please explain. On a side note, I am trying to work out a time where Coach Ford (who measured our course)can get together to measure it again. I feel bad for him, because I feel many on here are questioning his integrity.
@coachrickpt If running a fast course hurts a runners mindset, then the coach needs to educate their runners. Every course is different and runs different. Still what people are not doing is explaining to me and Coach Ford is why the other 9 races didn't produce the times the boys did. the winners in all of the other races produced an improvement of 8.75 seconds from their PR's. If you take the top 5 girls in the Championship race they ran an average of 11.4 seconds faster than their lifetime PR. Someone explain to me why this was the case. Shouldn't these athletes have run 30-45 seconds faster than their PR. And according my wife's math. Please explain.
On a side note, I am trying to work out a time where Coach Ford (who measured our course)can get together to measure it again. I feel bad for him, because I feel many on here are questioning his integrity.

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