Pickens Quad
08/30/2020 3:58:08 PM
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Can we please get this changed to NOT a 5000m in the results? I called Early Bird shorter than 3 mile on Twitter so I have to be consistent and fair. Looking at times, this is clearly not a 5000m
Can we please get this changed to NOT a 5000m in the results? I called Early Bird shorter than 3 mile on Twitter so I have to be consistent and fair. Looking at times, this is clearly not a 5000m
08/30/2020 6:47:10 PM
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Can you provide examples of why you believe this? I know multiple coaches wheeled and GPS'd the course to ensure it was correct. I have no issue if it wasn't and needs to be altered, but effort was given to make sure it was correct.
Can you provide examples of why you believe this? I know multiple coaches wheeled and GPS'd the course to ensure it was correct. I have no issue if it wasn't and needs to be altered, but effort was given to make sure it was correct.
08/30/2020 6:49:31 PM
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Also, to note, it was not the standard Pickens course. It was three loops, all in Roper Park, at just over a mile each.
Also, to note, it was not the standard Pickens course. It was three loops, all in Roper Park, at just over a mile each.
08/30/2020 8:10:03 PM
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I helped with the set up and that course is a true 5000 meters. We went over the course several times with multiple gps watches and a wheel.
I helped with the set up and that course is a true 5000 meters. We went over the course several times with multiple gps watches and a wheel.
08/30/2020 8:26:05 PM
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@ runtad: The course for the Pickens Quad meet was indeed a 5000m course. As scalbert noted, it was not our normal course (and the map for our normal course was removed from the meet page when it was posted Friday). We kept the entire race on the Roper Park side, and it was properly wheeled and simultaneously measured by GPS by several coaches. The course consisted of 3 loops around the park with the start and finish on the soccer field.
@ runtad: The course for the Pickens Quad meet was indeed a 5000m course. As scalbert noted, it was not our normal course (and the map for our normal course was removed from the meet page when it was posted Friday). We kept the entire race on the Roper Park side, and it was properly wheeled and simultaneously measured by GPS by several coaches. The course consisted of 3 loops around the park with the start and finish on the soccer field.
08/30/2020 9:10:03 PM
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GPS watches are not 100% accurate. Kids are showing anywhere from 40 sec to over 2 minutes improvement from Pickens meet a couple weeks ago to this past weekend. Not sure how that happens. And it doesn’t happen with just a couple athletes but many of them. People can believe what they want. In the end I guess it all comes out in the wash since we all have to race head to head at Carrollton. My issue isn’t with short courses. If the course has to be changed and is short, that’s fine. An accurate Publicized measurement is what I am asking for. If it was a true 5k then there are some coaches I need to talk to so I can learn how to get my athletes to be 1-2 minutes faster in a couple weeks.
GPS watches are not 100% accurate. Kids are showing anywhere from 40 sec to over 2 minutes improvement from Pickens meet a couple weeks ago to this past weekend. Not sure how that happens. And it doesn't happen with just a couple athletes but many of them. People can believe what they want. In the end I guess it all comes out in the wash since we all have to race head to head at Carrollton.

My issue isn't with short courses. If the course has to be changed and is short, that's fine. An accurate Publicized measurement is what I am asking for. If it was a true 5k then there are some coaches I need to talk to so I can learn how to get my athletes to be 1-2 minutes faster in a couple weeks.
08/30/2020 9:25:46 PM
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[quote=runtad]GPS watches are not 100% accurate. Kids are showing anywhere from 40 sec to over 2 minutes improvement from Pickens meet a couple weeks ago to this past weekend. Not sure how that happens. And it doesn’t happen with just a couple athletes but many of them. People can believe what they want. In the end I guess it all comes out in the wash since we all have to race head to head at Carrollton. [/quote] Did you not read that it was not the same course as two weeks ago? It was the same location, but not the same course. This should be simple to understand. If you have never been to Roper Park, you do not know that the park side is flat. The other side of the road, through the tunnel is all hills. They ran only on the park side. Again, I ask, please cite examples that you feel are suspect. Waiting....
runtad wrote:
GPS watches are not 100% accurate. Kids are showing anywhere from 40 sec to over 2 minutes improvement from Pickens meet a couple weeks ago to this past weekend. Not sure how that happens. And it doesn't happen with just a couple athletes but many of them. People can believe what they want. In the end I guess it all comes out in the wash since we all have to race head to head at Carrollton.


Did you not read that it was not the same course as two weeks ago? It was the same location, but not the same course. This should be simple to understand.
If you have never been to Roper Park, you do not know that the park side is flat. The other side of the road, through the tunnel is all hills. They ran only on the park side.

Again, I ask, please cite examples that you feel are suspect. Waiting....
08/30/2020 9:30:06 PM
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[quote=runtad]If it was a true 5k then there are some coaches I need to talk to so I can learn how to get my athletes to be 1-2 minutes faster in a couple weeks. [/quote] Shouldn't you, as an educator, take the time to read the details to understand it was a different course? This is baffling me.
runtad wrote:
If it was a true 5k then there are some coaches I need to talk to so I can learn how to get my athletes to be 1-2 minutes faster in a couple weeks.


Shouldn't you, as an educator, take the time to read the details to understand it was a different course? This is baffling me.
08/30/2020 9:56:12 PM
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@scalbert it’s late on a Sunday night. I was trying to prepare my digital sessions to teach tomorrow. Any educator who is teaching digitally knows that as educators we are doing a lot more work than normal to ensure our students are still receiving a quality education. I’m also getting my specialist degree so I was working on work for those classes. I apologize for not citing the specific data but I will make sure to get you data when I have a few minutes to put it together. I understand the course was different. I did read that and do not need you to insult my intelligence and talk down to me. In my opinion, if both courses were truly a 5k, we should not see the big drop in time we see over a 2 week period. On average the boys who ran both Pickens races were 1:25 faster. The girls were 2:23 faster. Again, I understand they were different courses but those are large differences. I have been to Roper Park before but it has been a few years. Maybe the hills across the road are a lot bigger than I remember.
@scalbert it's late on a Sunday night. I was trying to prepare my digital sessions to teach tomorrow. Any educator who is teaching digitally knows that as educators we are doing a lot more work than normal to ensure our students are still receiving a quality education. I'm also getting my specialist degree so I was working on work for those classes. I apologize for not citing the specific data but I will make sure to get you data when I have a few minutes to put it together.

I understand the course was different. I did read that and do not need you to insult my intelligence and talk down to me. In my opinion, if both courses were truly a 5k, we should not see the big drop in time we see over a 2 week period. On average the boys who ran both Pickens races were 1:25 faster. The girls were 2:23 faster. Again, I understand they were different courses but those are large differences. I have been to Roper Park before but it has been a few years. Maybe the hills across the road are a lot bigger than I remember.
08/30/2020 10:29:08 PM
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@runtad I appreciate the extra effort you have had to deal with the digital learning. I know it is more difficult. We are all facing greater difficulty as I have not stopped visiting customers the entire time. It is tough all around. But that is not the point of statement. Insult intelligence and talk you down? That is not the intent and I apologize if you you took it that way. I prefer to discuss matters in a point blank matter. Two weeks later and a flat course, things pretty much aligned where they should. I would be happy to hop on a call to discuss as all is good.
@runtad

I appreciate the extra effort you have had to deal with the digital learning. I know it is more difficult. We are all facing greater difficulty as I have not stopped visiting customers the entire time. It is tough all around. But that is not the point of statement.

Insult intelligence and talk you down? That is not the intent and I apologize if you you took it that way. I prefer to discuss matters in a point blank matter. Two weeks later and a flat course, things pretty much aligned where they should.

I would be happy to hop on a call to discuss as all is good.
08/30/2020 10:57:16 PM
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Fortunately in our sport we get to figure out who the fastest are on a common course all together. In the first week of November. Coaches work insane hours to get their courses right. Some are fast, some are not. Some have hills, some are flat. etc etc.. If having a great PR on Milesplit is the motivation, then the idea of racing and the nature of the sport is lost. Just what I believe.
Fortunately in our sport we get to figure out who the fastest are on a common course all together. In the first week of November. Coaches work insane hours to get their courses right. Some are fast, some are not. Some have hills, some are flat. etc etc.. If having a great PR on Milesplit is the motivation, then the idea of racing and the nature of the sport is lost. Just what I believe.
08/30/2020 11:49:15 PM
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@CoachHoughton There was no ulterior motive (Shiny PR) for the course change. Ridge Ferry got cancelled due to course flooding, the course at Pickens was changed for safety and just happened to get changed in a way that resulted in some fast times, it was much flatter and had stretches of pavement. You’re right, it’ll work out in Nov, which is exactly what i said to coach Gambrell in a separate conversation. but these kids and coaches have put in too much work for it to be written off as “losing the nature of the sport”. Can’t compare races on different courses, heck really can’t even compare races on the same course (different conditions, injuries, etc, etc) can only use them as a measuring stick for expectations. Cherokee classic that was at Boling is a different course set up than Cherokee county, so can’t compare times from those races. Coach White and Coach Scharich aren’t trying to sandbag anything just to make it look good on milesplit. They’re as dedicated to their craft as any of us, I trust their work ethic and judgement to do it right. Times for my team we’re markedly better than 2 weeks ago. Pickens Peek course ran more like Carrollton where as the quad ran more like Boling, easy to get significant time changes in that regard especially when half my varsity boys were on quarantine for the Peek and half my girls were dealing with hip issues and were having difficulties breathing. So for me, it was more of an “it’s about time” race than a “holy crap that was fast” race. My top girl ran 18:36 in the 5000m at Milton on the track last year, so for her to run 18:40 isn’t out of the ballpark. Creekview’s top girl has run in the 17s 5-6 times and coming from an injury it’s not out of the ballpark that she ran mid 18. 3 of my other girls have PRs in the 19s and 2 went low 20, not unrealistic by any means. 2 others set PRs, but by less than 20 secs, not unrealistic.
@CoachHoughton

There was no ulterior motive (Shiny PR) for the course change. Ridge Ferry got cancelled due to course flooding, the course at Pickens was changed for safety and just happened to get changed in a way that resulted in some fast times, it was much flatter and had stretches of pavement. You're right, it'll work out in Nov, which is exactly what i said to coach Gambrell in a separate conversation. but these kids and coaches have put in too much work for it to be written off as "losing the nature of the sport". Can't compare races on different courses, heck really can't even compare races on the same course (different conditions, injuries, etc, etc) can only use them as a measuring stick for expectations. Cherokee classic that was at Boling is a different course set up than Cherokee county, so can't compare times from those races. Coach White and Coach Scharich aren't trying to sandbag anything just to make it look good on milesplit. They're as dedicated to their craft as any of us, I trust their work ethic and judgement to do it right.

Times for my team we're markedly better than 2 weeks ago. Pickens Peek course ran more like Carrollton where as the quad ran more like Boling, easy to get significant time changes in that regard especially when half my varsity boys were on quarantine for the Peek and half my girls were dealing with hip issues and were having difficulties breathing. So for me, it was more of an "it's about time" race than a "holy crap that was fast" race. My top girl ran 18:36 in the 5000m at Milton on the track last year, so for her to run 18:40 isn't out of the ballpark. Creekview's top girl has run in the 17s 5-6 times and coming from an injury it's not out of the ballpark that she ran mid 18. 3 of my other girls have PRs in the 19s and 2 went low 20, not unrealistic by any means. 2 others set PRs, but by less than 20 secs, not unrealistic.
08/31/2020 7:48:32 AM
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I know nothing about any of these courses and haven't looked closely at any times. But I can believe that kids can drop that much time if one course has hills and one doesn't. One example would be Sam Rich who last year ran 18:12 at Milton and then a few weeks later went 15:18 at Coach Wood. I'm sure if you go through those coach wood results you can find lots of examples like that, and I don't think anybody will ever question the length of a course that coach Christie sets up.
I know nothing about any of these courses and haven't looked closely at any times. But I can believe that kids can drop that much time if one course has hills and one doesn't. One example would be Sam Rich who last year ran 18:12 at Milton and then a few weeks later went 15:18 at Coach Wood. I'm sure if you go through those coach wood results you can find lots of examples like that, and I don't think anybody will ever question the length of a course that coach Christie sets up.
08/31/2020 8:23:29 AM
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@Garrethurlbert Coach- don't misunderstand, I am on your side here. Congrats on the improvement. It looks like it was a great meet. I definitely don't think there was any motives etc. My point (poorly made) is that when people focus on course legitimacy and all that because they are obsessed with times that other people are running rather than racing, its not good. I am a staunch defender of anyone who hosts and puts on meets. It's a brutal task. I apologize for not making myself more clear. At the end of the day I don't care if its a 5k, 4.5k, 6k, whatever. It all shakes out at Carrollton.
@Garrethurlbert
Coach- don't misunderstand, I am on your side here. Congrats on the improvement. It looks like it was a great meet. I definitely don't think there was any motives etc. My point (poorly made) is that when people focus on course legitimacy and all that because they are obsessed with times that other people are running rather than racing, its not good. I am a staunch defender of anyone who hosts and puts on meets. It's a brutal task. I apologize for not making myself more clear.
At the end of the day I don't care if its a 5k, 4.5k, 6k, whatever. It all shakes out at Carrollton.
08/31/2020 9:27:24 AM
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@CoachHoughton I gotcha! And I apologize for misunderstanding.
@CoachHoughton

I gotcha! And I apologize for misunderstanding.
08/31/2020 3:35:19 PM
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I agree it all comes out in the wash. I apologize to the meet directors and all the athletes who ran in the meet. My original post could have been written and posed in a much better way. I am not obsessed with what other teams are running. And I in no way want to question the integrity of fellow coaches but I see how my original post can be perceived that way. I guess I am just advocating for more transparency with course set up and advertisement. Best of luck to all this season and congrats to the coaches and athletes on the performances this weekend.
I agree it all comes out in the wash.

I apologize to the meet directors and all the athletes who ran in the meet. My original post could have been written and posed in a much better way. I am not obsessed with what other teams are running. And I in no way want to question the integrity of fellow coaches but I see how my original post can be perceived that way. I guess I am just advocating for more transparency with course set up and advertisement.

Best of luck to all this season and congrats to the coaches and athletes on the performances this weekend.
08/31/2020 4:22:43 PM
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Just reading this whole thread, the only thing I found suspect was when you said it was measured with GPS and wheel. You made it sound like they had the same results, usually this is not the case. Did your wheel and GPS match? Just curious, Have a great season everyone.
Just reading this whole thread, the only thing I found suspect was when you said it was measured with GPS and wheel. You made it sound like they had the same results, usually this is not the case. Did your wheel and GPS match?

Just curious, Have a great season everyone.

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