MileSplit GA

The GHSA advisory board will meet one more time to finalize the state sectional proposal for 2012. I hope you will read and give feed back so we can get this right the first time. We got a lot of feed back at the clinic, and will take this into consideration when we meet in early March.

STATE SECTIONAL PROPOSAL

1. HOW IMPLEMENTED
a. Ensures the strongest field possible qualifies for State Finals
b. Seeding from Sectionals to State Finals eliminates “Region Split”
c. No changes whatsoever required of Albany or Jefferson
d. Financial issue – Some schools who would normally spend 3 nights with athlete at state meet, will now only have to go to a one day meet (net-gain financially).
e. Host sites must be geographically spread out (Southern/non-metro schools will be represented)
f. Host school facilities must be safe, and meet state requirements

2. BASIC MEET INFORMATION
a. Boys and Girls State Sectionals run together
b. Dates for Meets – Region meets held one week prior to Sectionals , Sectionals will be one week prior to earliest State Finals Meet (boys or girls), For example 2012 region meets April 21, sectional meets April 28, state meets Girls May 3,4,5 and Boys May 10,11,12
c. Top 4 from each Region advance to Sectionals
d. Advancing from Sectionals to State Finals
i. Running Events – 2 heats: top 2 in each heat, and next 4 fastest times advance to State Finals
ii. Field Events – Top 8 advance to State Finals
iii. 1600-3200 - Top 8 advance to State Finals
e. Qualifying heats only. No running finals will be held.
f. Finals will be held in field events

3. SECTIONAL SPLIT
a. AAAAA: Section 1 – 2,4,5,6; Section 2 – 1,3,7,8
b. AAAA: Section 1 – 1,3,5,7; Section 2 – 2,4,6,8
c. AAA: Section 1 – 4,5,6,7; Section 2 – 1,2,3,8
d. AA: Section 1 – 1,5,6,7; Section 2 – 2,3,4,8
e. A: Section 1 – 1,4,5,6; Section 2 – 2,3,7,8

4. MEET HOSTS
AAAAA Section 1 McEachern, Section 2 Tift County
AAAA Section 1 Starrs Mill, Section 2 Greenbrier
AAA Section 1 Carrollton, Section 2 Veterans @ McConnell Talbert Stadium
AA Section 1 GACS, Section 2 TBD
A Section 1 Landmark Christian Section 2 TBD


5. SEEDING
a. From Region to Sectionals:
i. Lane Races - Top 2 from each region – Place first, then time
ii. 3rd and 4th place finishers in each Region – seeded by time only
iii. 1600 and 3200 races and field events seeded by time or distance/height
b. From Sectionals to State Final:
i. All qualifiers – Top 2 from each sectional heat - Place first then time
ii. 5th – 8th place qualifiers from each sectional seeded by time only
iii. 1600 and 3200 races and field events seeded by time or distance/height

MEET SCHEDULE
Boys and girls

Saturday
FIELD EVENTS
12:00 Long Jump Girls, Triple Jump Boys
12:00 Shot put Girls, Discus Boys
12:00 High Jump Boys Pole Vault Girls
2:00 Triple jump Girls, Long Jump Boys
2:00 High Jump girls, Pole Vault Boys

RUNNING EVENTS
3:30 400 Meter Relay
3:50 1600 Meter Run
4:20 400 Meter Dash
4:35 100 Meter Dash
4:50 110 Meter Hurdles-100 Meter Hurdles
5:10 800 Meter
5:30 200 Meter Dash
5:45 300 Meter Hurdles
6:10 3200 Meter Run
7:00 1600 Meter Relay

2 things;

I think there needs to be more time for the 1600 and 3200 runners--run the 1600 during the field events

What about regions that use hand times--is that fair for seeding when other regions are using FAT ---the hand time regions would get better lanes

@GoCubs Thanks for the input.
We will talk about the 1600 starting with the field events at the meeting in March.

About hand times vs FAT this is what happens from region to state meet now. We send our times FAT other regions send HH I do not see a problem with it. I think the new way is better as the first place runner coming out of each region will be seeded in lane four or lane five, the second place runners will be seeded in lane three or lane six. The other four runners will be seeded by time into the other lanes by time only. We run two heats and take the top two from each heat and the next four fastest times to state. Why do we need to worry about it if the region used HH or FAT if we take the fastest kids that day into the state meet. I would like to know if I am missing what you are trying to say here so let me know if I am.

Will there be any adjustment to the start date for boys or girls to accommodate for the one week loss to the sex that has the later state meet (will both sexes start at the same time with the same first date for a competition)?
It seems that the proposal may force mostly combined boys and girls region meets, which means if boys start the late week in January, or vice versa, the sex starting later will effectively lose a week of the regular season. Or does the proposal actually account for that?

@runfastest Thanks for the question runfastest!
The boys and girls will start on same date in 2012. The end dates will not be the same rotate from year to year like they do now.

@MCTFCOACH

I agree with the thought to move the 1600 slightly earlier as I would expect that up to 75% of the athletes would be doubling and with warm weather at that point the extra time to rehydrate/recover would be useful.

Otherwise, this should be a great inmprovement with, at worst a 5th place or worse finisher left out (only then if the top 5 are from the same region - pretty unusual). Now if there could be some way to convince Albany to take Boys and Girls for A, AA, and AAA and Jefferson to do the same for AAAA & AAAAA and actually have the meets on the same weekend - what a wonderful world that would be ....(I can dream can't I)

BillATC

@MCTFCOACH

I agree with the thought to move the 1600 slightly earlier as I would expect that up to 75% of the athletes would be doubling and with warm weather at that point the extra time to rehydrate/recover would be useful.

Otherwise, this should be a great inmprovement with, at worst a 5th place or worse finisher left out (only then if the top 5 are from the same region - pretty unusual). Now if there could be some way to convince Albany to take Boys and Girls for A, AA, and AAA and Jefferson to do the same for AAAA & AAAAA and actually have the meets on the same weekend - what a wonderful world that would be ....(I can dream can't I)

@BillATC

I really like the idea of the boys and girls of each classification having the same meet. Fans tend to follow 1 school (or 1 classification) more than just boys or girls of all classifications.

@xcfan25 Thanks for your input. Back to the feed back at hand anyone see any thing that would not work in this proposal. We really would like to make this right the first time and cover all our bases. Put on your thinking caps and post below. If we did not think of something we want to make it right.

@MCTFCOACH
OK, I'm not a coach (nor otherwise experienced in running meets), but as a parent and a fan, and it strikes me that the schedule is pretty spread out: nearly an 8 hour meet. Considering that to start the fields at 12 folks would probably be targeting an 11 am team bus arrival (30 minute "travel buffer" and 30 minutes for warm up prior to the start of the event). That's 4 and a half hours before the running events even start.

Outside of the pole vault, is there any reason a field event would need more than an hour of competition time? And besides moving up the 1600M, might it be possible to squeeze the 4x100 heats between the two field sessions (when the 2nd session kids would be warming up)?

Anyway, in the interest of thinking of ways to do more in less time, is there any reason the following wouldn't work? :

11:30 Warmups for field session #1
11:45 1600M (1 section each for boys and girls)
12:00 Field session #1 starts competition
1:00 Warmups for Field session #2
1:00 4x100 heats (4)
1:30 Field session #2 starts competition
2:30 400M (was at 4:20 above, so now 1:50 ahead of above schedule)
(continuing on with rest of schedule)
4:20 3200M
5:10 4x400 heats

Net difference is it finishes 1 hour 50 minutes earlier, and increases the 1600M-3200M interval from 2:20 to 4:35. (if that is too much, move the 3200M up the schedule as much as desired).

BTW, how are the throws and horizontal jumps to be run? 3 attempts then top 9 to finals for 3 more? 5 attempts only for all? (You know, given that the purpose of these Quarter Final meets is to separate the top-8 from the bottom-8, it would be interesting to advance the top-4 after the prelims to the state meet, and have the final round be a jump/throw off of the middle 8 to determine the remaining 4.)

And what is the plan if the weather is horrible?

Another thing to consider in moving the 1600 to during the field events is for the 1600 athletes who do a field event. I know this is more rare at larger schools, but in smaller schools (mine, Landmark Christian) it is very common. You could easily run into a situation where an athlete has to pole vault a few attempts, check out to go run the 1600, have the bar move (or not move if they held up the event) and then come back completly fatigued and try to clear a hieght to make it to the state meet. I think a shorter rest between the 1600 and 3200 is not near as dramatic a disadvantage as this situation would be.

As a parent of a daughter who runs both the 3200 meters and 1600 meters, if you would consider for these athletes who do qualify in both 3200 meters and 1600 meters to give them as much recovery time as possible between the events.
I strongly recommend the GISA's approach that helps the distance runners who have the longest distance to compete in but also incredible heat to be running in. The 3200 meter was the first event 9:00 (morning)that was run at same time as the beginning of the field event. The heat is so intense in May in Albany.
Otherwise these runners are waiting all day to run a competitive 2 mile race at the end of the day.
Please consider making it a first event when field events start. That way they have time to rest to participate in a relay or possibly compete in the 1 mile as well.

The 1600 should stay where it is in the schedule. No special consideration is given for other "event doublers," so why should distance runners be given any special consideration? Athletes who double in the sprints or hurdles will have a short periods between their events as well, and many of them will run as many as 3 or 4 events, possibly after a field event or two.

This schedule has all running events contested within a 3:30 time period...that's going to be tough on everyone doing multiple events, and those who are running only a single event will have an advantage, whether they are distance runners, sprinters or hurdlers. Why adjust the schedule to benefit only one group of athletes?

Also, for many teams, the locations for these meets will be far from home. What does an athlete do with a 6 hour break between events at a school 2 hours from home? I suppose that if the weather is nice or there are facilities that are shaded and covered, it wouldn't be an issue, but otherwise, it's a problem worth considering.

-Coach Dehnke, Brookwood Distance

As was said before, the meet schedule will be re-visited at the March meeting.

Field events at sectionals will take 9 to finals, then the top 8 from finals will qualify for Jefferson/Albany.

Plan for inclement weather will be the same as it is now (for Region meets). There will be a deadline for completing Sectionals and getting the results to Jefferson/Albany (that will be a much easier process now). So, there will be a few days of buffer built in between the Sectional weekend & the deadline. In the case we have extended bad weather that prevents Sectionals from being completed prior to the deadline, allowances will have to be made (more than likely) by the GHSA to give an extra day or two to complete sectionals. An added advantage of a 1-day meet is that you only need 1 day of moderately good weather to get it done.

Does anyone have any input on qualifying or seeding procedures (either from Region to Sectionals or Sectionals to Jefferson/Albany)?

Carter

Thank you Coach Carter for the opinion that somehow was erased between me reading it and replying. Since the Sectional meet is not scored why worry about not having enough time/rest in between the distance events. Other States' regional meets and state meets are ran in one day where distance runners can run any variation of events from the 4x800m (Which would be nice here)/800m/1600m/3200/4x400m (yes, it does happen). I was at the coaches clinic this weekend at Duluth and laughed as the distance coaches clique complaine about the rest. It was laughable to see them worked up over just a couple of athletes from the entire track team. Train your athletes smart for next season and prepare them for the race not the stop watch. Then worry about the State meet. I will be doing the same.

@CU_Run

Thanks for letting me know that you were laughing when I asked the question at the clinic. I would've been respectful if you gave your opinion at the clinic, so I'd expect the same courtesy from you.

For what it's worth, I don't coach distance runners, I coach sprinters. However, I want to see the sectionals achieve the goal of sending the best 8 athletes to the state meet each year. My concern is that those athletes who run the 1600-800 double have only about 1 hour of recovery. In an average Wednesday meet, you're going to see them have more recovery than that, and that certainly doesn't have the pressure of a state qualifying event. There is a reason that the 1600 finals are not on the same day as 800 qualifying at Jefferson and Albany. Those races are extremely demanding. This is why most distance runners compete in 1-2 races per meet whereas sprinters and field event performers often are part of as many as 5 events. If you look at the sectional schedule, there are rest breaks in there between field event sessions and also between the field events and running events. If we're making accommodations for field event performers, why can we not do the same thing for other athletes?

We lobbied for a long time to get the sectionals so that we could have the best of the best running at state. Let's not have something as easy to change as a meet schedule prevent the sectionals from accomplishing what it is intended to do.

@GACARTER
Like very much the seeding and advancement procedure. Region meets may or may not have FAT, and different tracks/weather/days can affect results, but now that they all will have run their quarterfinals in one of two meets with FAT, no reason to seed excusively by place. And in this age of FAT resolution down to 0.001 secs, it makes no sense to rely exclusively on place for advancement into the semis and finals (AFAIK, no region that has FAT advances exclusively by place: why should the State Finals regress).

Finally Georgia joins the vast majority of other states (and the NCAA, and the GA HS field events!) in advancing at least some by performance time/mark.

XCdawg

I want to see the sectionals achieve the goal of sending the best 8 athletes to the state meet each year. My concern is that those athletes who run the 1600-800 double have only about 1 hour of recovery. In an average Wednesday meet, you're going to see them have more recovery than that, and that certainly doesn't have the pressure of a state qualifying event. There is a reason that the 1600 finals are not on the same day as 800 qualifying at Jefferson and Albany. Those races are extremely demanding. This is why most distance runners compete in 1-2 races per meet whereas sprinters and field event performers often are part of as many as 5 events. If you look at the sectional schedule, there are rest breaks in there between field event sessions and also between the field events and running events. If we're making accommodations for field event performers, why can we not do the same thing for other athletes?

We lobbied for a long time to get the sectionals so that we could have the best of the best running at state. Let's not have something as easy to change as a meet schedule prevent the sectionals from accomplishing what it is intended to do.

@XCdawg

I would argue that even with limited rest, we will have the best of the best at state. Now it is true that with limited rest between events, there will have to be a shift in strategy for race tactics, preparation and training design, as well as entries.

We are fortunate to have the distance events split up onto different days at the state meet, but really, that's rare at state meets nation-wide. In California, their state championship finals are all run in one day. When German Fernandez ran at his state meet in 2008, he qualified for the 1600 finals on Friday evening, then ran the finals of the 1600 (he won with a 4:00), and two hours later, he ran 8:34 in the 3200. Now I know that he is a rare athlete, and far more talented than 99.9% of our athletes competing at sectionals, but there are other states that have a tighter schedule in their state series meets, and those coaches plan accordingly.

Furthermore, won't the race tactics make this double easier on the kids who attempt it? Many of the strongest athletes (who we all want to run at the state meet) will likely be doubling, and with the meager objective of finishing in the top 8 in the race, it's likely that the 1600 will be a controlled effort, saving something for later races (800 or 3200).

-Coach Dehnke, Brookwood Distance

My parents are against any of the changes;this sounds like a way to manipulate state qualifiers.The schools with the best track and field programs are all in the West section for AAAAA.Winning the region now really has no meaning.Why not continue the way it is now and put the ownership of improvement and qualifying on the athletes?

@MCTFCOACH The 4/8 reclassification proposal was sent to the GHSA executive committee today. If approved, any idea on how this affects the state championships in cross country and track?

@monti2012

It's not manipulation of qualifiers. If anything, it still celebrates the region champions and runners-up in their events and gives 3rd/4th places in all regions the opportunity to qualify to state like very other state in the union.

I've watched 3 minute 800m girls run and not even finish the race at state qualifying while 2:25's sat at home, 6-6 pole vault region champions no-height at state while 9-6 vaulters sat at home, 10.6/10.7 sprinters sit at home while 11.2 region champions never made it out of prelims.

What it does is effectively put the BEST athletes statewide across the board on the track, runway and throwing circle.

The days of a 42 pt. champion are about to end.

Are the sectionals going to be split up on 2 days, preliminaries and finals like how at region meets the two are held on separate days or will it just be finals at sectionals? I was just curious if adding in sectionals would extend the postseason or shorten the regular season. Because currently I think we get 10 meets before regions and state. If we have to take out some of those meets to fit in the sectionals I don't really like it. Other than that I think I like everything. This is going to make sure that the best make it to the state meet.

CalePirtle

Are the sectionals going to be split up on 2 days, preliminaries and finals like how at region meets the two are held on separate days or will it just be finals at sectionals?

Read the OP.

CalePirtle

I was just curious if adding in sectionals would extend the postseason or shorten the regular season. Because currently I think we get 10 meets before regions and state...

The 10 meet limit does not count Region, Quarterfinals (aka, "sectionals" {*spit*} ), or State Finals.

Coaches, You need to cover bases with the GHSA White Book and specific rules regarding breaking ties at Region competition for 4th place (most likely in Field Events) for qualifying to Sectionals AND breaking ties for 8th place at Sectionals for qualifying to the State Meets. Currently, the White Book is very specific regarding a tie for 2nd place at Region Competition and the language/procedure for breaking ties for the new Sectional format needs to be specific as well.

Still no 4x800m relay as an offical event at the state meet level? We need to change that!

@ParkviewTrack

I agree on the scoring. We will now find ourselves with greater state track meets, and scoring will be a premium. No more luck up 3 points from kids surviving weak regions. Each point will be better earned from defeating the all around best in the state.
Its a new day. After experiencing the California State meet, where I saw recruits from Division 1 colleges not even making the state final, I believe we will now do the same here with intense competitions thru each of the scoring places.